The Problem with Me and Rob

8 Oct

EDIT: So it comes down to this I have decided…the reason I have issues with Rob Bell is very simple: I believe in depravity more deeply than he does. Now it is entirely possible that he is such a good person that it is easy for him to believe in the goodness of mankind (personkind for the PC…) I on the other hand am seldom even average and am often rotten to the core. So when I hear Rob doing what seem to me to be essentially sermons about the goodness of mankind, or the potential of mankind…they leave me flat. I know it is old school, (and limited to my experience)..but i have never been motivated to lasting change by a message about my potential. However I find myself constantly changed and changing by messages about the goodness and greatness of God. Sometime by necessity those messages include topics, not about my potential but the lack thereof…about my sin, and my failure. But it seems that when I feel the depth of the fall, and the helplessness of my situation…then I can finally see the beauty of my Savior the wonder of his love…and all the possibility in living to glorify him.

In the words of David Crowder:

But the harder I try the more clearly can I feel The depth of our fall and the weight of it all
And so this might could be the most impossible thing
Your grandness in me making me clean…

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16 Responses to “The Problem with Me and Rob”

  1. jason October 9, 2007 at 10:44 am #

    the best thing about this post is that it’s a fabulous example of what you quoted rob complaining about in the post that came immediately before it.

    seriously. you can’t plan that sort of irony.

  2. poopemerges October 9, 2007 at 10:49 am #

    Not really, because as noted before I do not own pajama’s…and while my wife sometimes claims that I am acting like a child she is certainly not my mom…

  3. Heather October 10, 2007 at 12:39 pm #

    Now I have not read this quote you refer to in context but I too have referred to someone having an innocence or being good. It doesn’t mean that I literally believe they are good or innocent in the ultimate view of comparison to Jesus being good or innocent. I believe on our own none of us would choose God because of our depravity. How can a depraved person choose God? But I want to say that my neighbor, an awesome person whose “good works” puts most Christ followers to shame, does not know Jesus. She needs Him. Yet God is big enough to allow some kind of human goodness. RIght? ALthought we all desperately need Jesus, I don’t think only Christians are able to do good things. God must be able to work through all of us despite of our sinful nature. Else the world would be even more horrifying than it is. All this to say, God can use Mandela by giving him some sort of innocence (not in the same way Jesus is) to ultimately do His WIll. Personally would I refer to Mandela that way? Don’t know. Just my two cents.

  4. Heather Fischer October 10, 2007 at 2:14 pm #

    The only “good” that is in us, is the righteousness of Christ and HIS good work in us through the Holy Spirit. I would submit that any “good work”, by our standards, apart from Christ is really not intrinsically good/righteous. Therefore, what is a good work apart from Christ?

  5. Heather October 10, 2007 at 11:16 pm #

    Are you responding to me? Well, I agree that good works are meaningless for us personally if Holy Spirit does not dwell within us. We could be amazing human beings in the world’s eyes but in God’s eyes fall short. Of course. But good work and love is never meaningless because it comes ultimately from the Creator. I wish we could talk in person becuase the give and take of the written cyber word takes more time. All I am trying to say is that God, who we can’t put in a box, can work through anyone. And that should humble us.
    Peace.

  6. poopemerges October 11, 2007 at 9:27 am #

    Heather,
    Have your read my argument that God can and indeed should be put in a box? (not that it entirely relates to the subject at hand, i just find the statement “God can not be put in a box” bothersome. The Bible and Revelation are indeed a box, to take God out of said box is idolatry.

    At any rate, I agree with both Heathers, F and other wise…I was perhaps hasty in using this quote to demonstrate what I still feel is the basic difference between Roberto and I…and I agree there are people, who seem good and wonderful, who do not know Jesus (my maternal grandma was one) so I see where you are coming from. When I wrote it I was thinking like Heather F. and probably drawing to greatly from my own context (which is in the city where the devil…er I mean Bell’s throne sits) Which means I see the Bellish one in action, and I understand from a myriad of things that the conclusion I have drawn if not the use of the quote is accurate…

    D

  7. Heather October 11, 2007 at 9:48 am #

    No I have not read your we can put God in the box-is it one of your past blogs? I will look before I respond. THanks

  8. Heather Fischer October 12, 2007 at 7:19 am #

    I know it is a matter of semantics when defining innocent and the implications of using that word coupled with a philosophical and theological view of the word innocent. Of course secularly it has a different context from the world’s use of the word but from a biblical context it has a vastly different meaning. Bell is a pastor and attended Fuller seminary, though never graduate, and certainly well informed about the word choice he used. Perhaps he meant to be broader with the use of the word innocent- however I think he knew exactly what he meant when he said it. Perhaps he should see what the ancient rabbi’s thought about it 😉

  9. poopemerges October 12, 2007 at 3:27 pm #

    Funny Heather F 🙂

  10. Scot McKnight October 12, 2007 at 9:03 pm #

    Hi to Ron Sheveland from me! Now in Yucaipa?

  11. poopemerges October 13, 2007 at 1:45 am #

    Indeed, left this wonderful Michigan weather for the Desert!

  12. Heather October 14, 2007 at 10:57 pm #

    Okay- I read your “God in the box” idoloty. And now it makes sense. But although I agree with some of what you say, I use the term “God in the box” differently. When I talk about putting “God in the box” I refer to people who say you have to believe a certain way about grey areas. Like post trib or pre trib or whatever, and there is no room to have a difference of opinion. I won’t bet my salvation on if I think tribulation will have to happen a certain way. That is just one example. I grew up in a legalistic church that did put God in their box. God is big and amazing- and we do put him in a box but after reading your blog, I would say we are putting him in our own personal box where he is not so amazing and uncomprehendible. There are some absolutes that are clear-but not EVERYTHING is black and white.

  13. poopemerges October 15, 2007 at 1:03 pm #

    Heather,
    I agree with what you are saying in principle..my point is that a lot of folk are now challenging not the gray areas but the black and white areas of clear revelation and orthodoxy.

    D

  14. poopemerges October 15, 2007 at 1:14 pm #

    Heather: You have hit the nail on the head up above…the problem was not that your legalistic church put God in a box it was that in clear violation of the second commandment they put him in the wrong box…all I am saying it that it is a sin to make God into something he is not, either by addition (in the cases of legalist) or by reduction (as in the case of liberalism.) Same sin different expression, we are trying to worship a God of our own design and thus making Yahweh into an idol.

  15. Heather October 15, 2007 at 9:17 pm #

    Yep, I hear ya.

  16. Suged October 17, 2007 at 12:17 am #

    I don’t think any of them would bother me so much if only they would stop calling themselves Christians. If you don’t want to believe in the core fundamentals of Christianity, fine, but then stop calling yourself Christians and start calling yourself something more creative. Like Bellians maybe, or heavens gate. Wait, that one is.. er.. was taken.

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