Just so we are clear…

13 Dec

If it came down to me choosing between Tony Jones and Ken Silva it would be difficult:

1. Tony has some theology I disagree with (I am unabashedly reformed…but only because Jesus was)

2. Ken Silva is a legalist who as near as I can tell does not like to over think things and jumps to conclusions that are not only wrong they are stupid

3. Bad theology one would think is sinful

4. Legalism is no less sinful

5. If I am mean to Tony Jones his wife may sue me…I don’t suspects Ken’s would

6. Tony Jones (while I disagree with many things he says) has a heart for the lost

7. Ken Silva confuses any attempt to reach the lost with being pagan (If this were Ken’s site the Headline would be “Jesus is a Pagan” as Jesus tried to reach the lost and Ken loves to jump to stupid conclusions.)

8. I have a very low tolerance for bad theology…I also have a very low tolerance for people who think that any attempt to reach people for Jesus is sinful

In the end my friend Tony, who I disagree with on a lot allows me to call him “T” and if Ken came to my church he would probably have a headline that read “Dave is a pagan who tries to reach evil tribes with the neo-cultic truth contained in his evil TNIV Bible…” So I an going with my bud “T”

Here how is this for a headline “Ken Silva is not a disciple of Jesus” click.


28 Responses to “Just so we are clear…”

  1. Heather Fischer December 14, 2007 at 1:16 am #

    So, this choice…is it a “on a desert island” type of thing?
    I choose Tony Jones, hand down. Speaking the truth in love.
    Also, I sent you a funny youtube video that I thought you’d appreciate.

  2. Heather December 14, 2007 at 2:48 pm #

    Now I have to check out who this Tony Jones guy is…

  3. poopemerges December 14, 2007 at 2:58 pm #

    He is one of the directions for Emergent and a national speaker on youth ministry.

  4. naoip December 15, 2007 at 9:15 am #

    “The Bible Is An F***king Scary Book”

    Yeah hes down with the kids rofl.

    Once upon a time Church of England pastors pretending to be cool,with their accoustic guitar were a national joke,now there called emergents..

    Its a farce and this once Christian is finding it hilirious,it saves me so much time when my Christian friends ask why i left i just link the thread on Tony site,what a crock…

    100% this law thing will die in the water..

  5. naoip December 15, 2007 at 9:27 am #

    oh ps on the desert island i’d take Ken,if Tony is anything like Pagitt,it would take 20 hr to cover every angle in determining if the island is really a island…

  6. naoip December 16, 2007 at 6:32 am #

    Hahah the funniest thing, its Tony who finally stops comments with a little sarcastic remark,i notice after Tammy Wynette got asked a very basic question about what she believes,no way she was going to answer basic questions with a yes or no

    Only person hanging himself is Tony,comments are off & now Tony gets plenty of time to pimp God in another paperback zzzzzzzzz

  7. naoip December 16, 2007 at 6:44 am #

    Anyways thks for the space..I got carried away lol,i wont waste ur bandwidth any more…

    But one thing, i dislike Christians with a vengeances ,but its Tony and is ilk that turn me off God far more then Ken.It’s not Ken saying i don’t have any answers but please buy my book about not having the answers..

    To me Tony and Brian and Bell and the rest of the shower,are no differences then the crap on TBN

    there all pimps selling God

  8. Ken Silva December 16, 2007 at 6:20 pm #

    “if Tony is anything like Pagitt”

    He is; Pagitt is his pastor.

  9. poopemerges December 16, 2007 at 8:04 pm #

    AH…To me they are all just people…flawed people…and sometimes they are all annoying (just like me) But Jesus, him I love and he is perfect. I don’t blame Jesus for Ken, or Tony or Doug any more than I do for me…I am glad that peoples faith is not based on me! See all of us screwed up…if you think about it we make the strongest argument for the need for a savior that there is, we are all very human and none of us have it together. Don’t let any of us and our inside arguments get you down…Jesus is worth it!

  10. naoip December 16, 2007 at 8:18 pm #

    Hey poops let me just add i’m far worse then any of them Ken,Tony,Julie or you..

    I have a super chip on my shoulder,and my comments should be read in that contexts!

    Theres not many Christian i admire, maybe Art Katz God bless him..

    The reason i liked Art so, was his integrity,which makes me ponder your comments about not being comfortable with some of Tony’s beliefs,don’t you feel compromised?

    I read a lot about emergents,and it seems a common thread in nearly every blog “i don’t agree with everything BUT” i find that odd..

  11. poopemerges December 16, 2007 at 8:42 pm #

    No the thing is it’s not like Tony and I will be in deep fellowship anytime soon…I think he makes major errors that are dangerous and must be confronted. But my ultimate point I guess is this, none of us no matter how right or wrong in our beliefs are going to be made right with God by use of our reason. So while I think Tony may be theologically off his rocker, and Doug even more, I am not going to base whether or not I think they have been “saved” (to use a word from our Christian ghetto) upon confidence in their beliefs, the only confidence I have in anyones salvation is in Jesus’ life, death and resurrection.

  12. naoip December 16, 2007 at 10:20 pm #

    But eventually there as to be a mark in the sand,when you would think wowee to far?

    If not surly it becomes like Art says To decide to tolerate one deceit is to violate the whole truth.

  13. naoip December 17, 2007 at 7:53 pm #

    Like i said dead in the water 😉

    Alls well that ends well

  14. poopemerges December 17, 2007 at 9:31 pm #

    I would think lots of things are to far :). I think bad teaching must be confronted..but my base point is that I do not feel like Ken is honest when he does confront it (he exaggerates which obscures his point) and I feel like people can have bad theology and still be redeemed.

    Now would it tolerate this kind of double talking relativistic, Jesus minimizing teaching in my church? Never. Would I allow anyone to teach it… never. There is a line…but to me both Tony and Ken transgress it…(from opposite sides)..

  15. Chris Dugan December 18, 2007 at 7:20 pm #

    I think the whole thing got out of hand very quickly. Blame could go to both sides (I’m with you theologically Ken, but some the name-calling can be childish). Julie Jones took it to a whole other level though by threatening a lawsuit. That was just kind of silly. Do our civil courts really care who’s a heretic or not? How is calling someone that slander? This isn’t 15th century Rome.

    I’m with Mr. Tim Keller on Emergent: they aren’t anywhere near as influential or widespread as people think they are and their own love of disorganization will be their undoing. In 10 years we will have mostly forgotten about this little neo-liberal sect of Christianity.

  16. poopemerges December 18, 2007 at 7:36 pm #

    And that my friend is why we love Tim Keller!

  17. tony jones December 19, 2007 at 5:51 pm #

    I am reformed. What have you ever read that I have written that would cause you to think otherwise? Seriously, gimme some page numbers.

    And, just because one is not reformed does not mean one has “bad theology.” Reformed theology is not the only good theology, and to presume so borders on the absurd.

    Would that you had a wife who stood by her man publicly as Julie has. Imagine if you read blog after blog that accused your spouse of cultism, Hinduism, and devil worship…

  18. tony jones December 19, 2007 at 5:52 pm #

    BTW, I’ve sat down and talked theology for two hours with Tim Keller. We had a great time, and I don’t think we are quite as far apart as you’re assuming.

  19. jmcjones December 19, 2007 at 6:14 pm #

    My brother and his wife go to Kellers church. Great guy. Law suits are called a threat when they are not pursued. Why is it so hard for sme to believe that a lawyer is working on this. It is not okay to call another human being a satanic cult leader over the internet when their career in ministry may be jeopardized. Do you see how that may bother his wife and mother to his 3 kids?

    The case is being evaluated with legal council as I post. Ken knows this and will be notified of the situation. A letter determining what/if laws were broken will be drafted and sent to Ken. Tony and I don’t fee good about suing and haven’t confirmed or denied doing so We want lies presented as facts stopped on his 3 sites. End of story.

    Ken and I have apologized to one another and agree to be more civil in the future as not to drag in the likes of NAIOP.

    NAIOP, I am stunned at your level of hate transmitted over the internet. I am so sorry for whatever happened to you to make you so angry and hate filled. That is not peace.

  20. naoip December 19, 2007 at 6:45 pm #

    Why are you so stunned by my hate Julie,when it appears ur own brothers don’t even speak kindly of you,why is it so surprising when a unbeliever dislikes yours and Tony’s ideas?

    Look on the bright side you can call it persecution and say you must be on the right track ;-)..

    Now its become about my comments,now you and Ken are having a love in (to the next time)..

    And to be honest if ur stunned by my comments you must live a very sheltered existences

  21. poopemerges December 19, 2007 at 8:02 pm #

    Tony and Julie,

    I was trying to support you. Tony I have read stuff you have said that I totally disagree with but it seems to me that you have always been gracious…this was my point. I just disagree…I think this is ok. As far as reformed-ness read the rest of the site…I make that point as well…I just happen to love Keller.

    Here is a question I have been wanting to ask though…it seems to me that you speak a different language than most evangelicals…Which is interesting given the role of language in your epistemology…here is the thing: For all the talk of contextualizing I don’t feel like your position is very well contextualized for those of us who are not used to your use of language…

    My point is this: Half the time I don’t know if I agree with you or not because I think we are using terminology differently…is there a way you could contextualize or communicate your position so it does not seem so fuzzy to more traditional evangelicals?

    Anyhoo I was not trying to add to the din of haters…I was just saying hey I disagree, but that does not mean that the dude is not a Christian.


  22. jmcjones December 19, 2007 at 9:53 pm #

    naiop, seriously. why the hate? its christmas time. let up and do you have a name other than initials. you are a person. disagreeing is good and fine but the hate?

    I have felt the support. I don’t lump you with naiop who I wish had a name. I don’t think anyone can clear up the fuzziness because we wouldn’t speak for the whole.

    We are individuals with unique contexts for how we live out our faith. It is fuzzy. It is messy. It only makes sense when you are inside of it, open and appreciating the diversity. No, there is no tight theology to adhere to or life style statement to sign.

    I grew up catholic and became a Christian in my early twenties so I can’t even address how to clear it up to a traditional evangelical because I don’t know what that looks like.

    It is about Jesus for me. Reading the new testament I am inspired to love, give and be more through Him.

    I can’t speak for Tony because we have differences in how we express our Christian faith. For me, I look to Jesus and try to be more like him and fail and try again. I try to be open to the Holy Spirit and that looks like an openness of diverse people and experiences and I try and discern what I can use to grow my faith walk even if I disagree.

    There is a place in the conversation for Kens. I respect someone that reads the bible with fervent intensity. Tony knows his bible inside and out as well but for me that is only part of what it means to be a Christian.

    I did BSF for years and that didn’t do much to draw me closer to God. In fact I was really turned off by the discussions condemning people and groups that I consider christian.

    I feel most in line with what I consider Jesus to be saying for me, by trying to be his hands and feet in my bubble and in the world.

    My emergent involvement and practices as a Christian look different from the person sitting next to me at Solomon’s Porch on a ratty old donated couch in an old vacant methodist church because as a community we value recycling and not building more things. Volunteering, involvement with causes, living a sustainable life, Somali immigrant outreach, generally trying to be a light in the world, and fighting for the environment.

    Those are what has been placed on my heart.

    Still fuzzy? I am glad for your conversation D and the funny blog name. Julie

  23. poopemerges December 20, 2007 at 2:00 am #

    That is an excellent description…You seem to be passionate about some of the same things I am passionate about…Ours is an urban ministry and we believe deeply in living the faith…for us that is because the Bible is the center…and the way to live Jesus is to live the Bible…

    Don’t let Naiop get you down he is just a man desperately in need of Jesus. (and aren’t we all)

  24. naoip December 20, 2007 at 6:31 am #

    No i’m not in need of Jesus pbuh at all thks..

    I’m so much of a hater,that i said i was far worse then Ken Tony and Julie ??

    I was a member of a ultra fundamentalist church in my teens,ironically i would say i was pretty emergent at the time,i was told no no no throw this away,do this,do that bend over back wards and do it againnnnnnn i’m talking strict!!

    I walked,i went back three years ago to these haters, and WOWEE now their emergent, and Mr F* up me is told wowee ur so fundamental hmmm wonder why folks..

    I left and reverted to Islam 3 years ago

    And as i know Tony is Doug friend,every road leads to heaven right?

    If ur all so right how come God tell you all different things is He schizo??


  25. naoip December 20, 2007 at 6:36 am #

    ps i didn’t ever say i hated you Julie, i said i was full of hate for Christianity,as i don’t know you personally that would be ridiculous..

  26. poopemerges December 20, 2007 at 11:11 am #


    Dude it really is all about Jesus…those crazy fundamentalist of your youth just did not understand that..they made it about all kinds of rules and pain and junk, that was not about Jesus. But I will say this again., you, me, Tony all of us are just people in need of Jesus!

    It is not about rules…It is about a King and a Kingdom and a man who is a friend…I feel you because I hate when people hide Jesus behind stupid rules.

    I was not being mean when I said it, i said it in love so I will say it again…you, like me, need Jesus.

  27. Stacy February 2, 2012 at 10:09 pm #

    I’m afraid after mocking both men (who I know nothing about really) you are the one who comes off like, pardon me as I don’t say this to many people…like an idiot. (Augh, there, I said it…so sorry!) Your writing is so poor! The easiest one of many GLARING errors resides in your last line. “Here” should be spelled “Hear”. Wow. I only mention it so as you can improve. Your proud tone does not match your wit just yet.

  28. pdavidy8 February 2, 2012 at 10:24 pm #

    Stacy: You may be right and I may be an idiot. But you are grammatically wrong about the last line. I am not announcing that you can “Hear me now…” I was saying in the place, as in “here it is.”

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